KDE's Future Will be Wayland
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KDE's Future Will be Wayland
by Susan Linton - Apr. 20, 2013Comments (8)
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KDE's Martin Grasslin blogged today that despite what the rest of the industry/community does, KDE's future will be on Wayland. He said he and his fellow developers decided to travel the road more annoying, if not by choice by process of elimination. It's been interesting to follow the various desktop camps as they discuss the future of their software in relation to desktop graphical servers. Xorg has been the recipient of some mighty harsh words as far back as when it was still XFree. GNOME already stated their interest in developing for Wayland and Grasslin thinks even the smaller projects will move away from X as well. Basically, Grasslin thinks Wayland is the future. However, he did say it would be a while before the switch is thrown officially. Plasma Workspaces 2 will still be based on X while developers wrangle the Qt 5 migration. But understand, they "all agree that our future will be on Wayland and even if we use X as the windowing system our primary focus is on Wayland." Grasslin was actually posting about the relationship between KWin and Plasma, and the crux of that is KDE "will develop all our integration bits in a way that one could replace KWin by a different Wayland compositor, even if that is just a theoretical option." So folks might still use Compiz should it support Wayland. But to regular KDE users, our question is will NVIDIA support Wayland. Once upon a time, NVIDIA said no way no how, but back last fall they said they'd consider it. This recent thread on the NVIDIA forums should shake every KDE user to their core. One developer said outright, "NVIDIA couldn't care less to support it." Yikes. He then added, "use nouveau." Wayland is being developed for nouveau and, in fact, requires it. And it seems there are third party patches for nouveau to run on Wayland (oh joy!). And for part-time gamers, it's nice to know "some 3D acceleration exists" in nouveau.
KDE nVidia Wayland Xorg nouveau
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by Sebastian Kügler on Apr. 21, 2013I appreciate your coverage of the topic. However, a few things need rectification, as they might confuse the reader:
* The rest of the industry / community is betting on Wayland, this includes distros, such as RedHat, OpenSUSE, communities such as Enlightenment (basically works), GNOME (plans, work in progress). It is, in fact, quite amazing how well the move to Wayland is concerted across the whole ecosystem. I am aware of only one company, which has expressed plans not to support Wayland, but roll their own solution. They're planning to have something running next year, so I guess we should judge that effort when there's code out there.
* KDE and Plasma will add Wayland support, rather than remove X and bet on Wayland, so both graphics stacks can coexist. We want to give our users the choice. Realistically, X will be around for a long time. Currently, removing X is not even planned. I've laid out those plans on my blog at http://vizzzion.org/blog/2013/01/the-road-to-kde-frameworks-5-and-plasma...
* Compiz, at this point, likely won't make the jump to Wayland. Its previous main developers consider it dead upstream. What we're thinking of when talking about a different compositor is for example Weston, which is a reference Wayland compositor. Once there are more options, we'll be able to say more about this. In the meantime, we work with the rest of the Free software ecosystem, in order to drive this forward. We will keep the interfaces between shell, applications and compositor well-defined, because we believe in separation of components, and it will make development in the future easier.
* I'm not quite sure where NVidia states that there's no Wayland support planned or in the pipeline. The user you quote doesn't seem to be speaking on behalf of nvidia (nothing suggests that, as NVidia developers in the nvforums are marked as that -- most likely it's just an uninformed user, his other comments suggests that he doesn't understand the underlying issues very well).
* Wayland does not require the Nouveau driver, it's an architecture-independent of a specific graphics driver or hardware.
-- sebas, KDE Plasma developer
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by Sebastian Kügler on Apr. 21, 2013Hi Susan,
Thanks for covering KDE and Wayland on your blog at OStatic. However, while reading, a few things struck me as probably being misunderstood -- that can happen, it's a complex topic.
* The rest of the industry / community is moving to Wayland as well, or at least considering it as an option. In fact, I know of only one company, who has talked about plans to not go Wayland, but roll their own solution. That is planned to be released next year, so best judge that when it materializes. Backers of Wayland include Intel, Qt, GTK, openSUSE, Redhat, GNOME, Enlightenment, Jolla, and many others. It's actually quite amazing how much on the same line the Free software community is there.
* KDE Plasma will add support for Wayland, but there are currently no plans to remove support for X. They will coexist. There's no switch thrown officially, it's the users' choice.
* Compiz is probably a bad example for a Wayland compositor, as it is, at this point, unlikely that Compiz will ever support Wayland. Compiz is basically dead upstream. Its developers have left.
* Nvidia has not stated they won't support Wayland, the user you are quoting is just that, a forum user. NVidia developers in the nvforums are marked as that. Other posts by user "birdie" suggest a lack of understanding of the graphics stack. Probably not such a good source of information.
* Wayland does in no way require Nouveau. It's independent of a specific graphics driver or hardware. Also, Nouveau supports Wayland just fine. The post you quote about third party patches is from 2.5 years old (very old, compared to the pace of development in that area).
-- sebas, KDE Plasma Developer
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by an anonymous user on Apr. 21, 2013If there is no proper Nvidia support I would have to change desktops...
I love KDE, but I just couldn't run a desktop where due to lack of binary Nvidia support all openGL games were 40 - 80% slower than on desktop where Nvidia support is - i.e xorg/Mir ?
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by oiaohm on Apr. 22, 2013--I love KDE, but I just couldn't run a desktop where due to lack of binary Nvidia support all openGL games were 40 - 80% slower than on desktop where Nvidia support is - i.e xorg/Mir ?--
Mir no it does not have Nvidia support either. Nvidia is the stumbling block of all the past attempts to get rid of X11.
Little thing here the open source nouveau is running at about half to 1/4 of the correct GPU clock speed. So if nvidia did release just how to control the clocks of there GPU correctly most of the performance issue would disappear. Yes some games would run faster with nouveau than there own drivers.
Nvidia on ARM hardware is a different matter. They already support wayland.
Yes Nvidia on x86 is still dragging like a ball and chain.
Wayland is from the X11 teams. So next versions of X11 are going to become more Wayland in operation. So since Nvidia will support X11 they will be dragged to supporting Wayland by X11.
Now Mir does not have the X11 project to drag Nvidia into complanice.
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by an anonymous user on Apr. 22, 2013NETWORK TRANSPARENCY?!?!?!?!?!
Regardless of how many times I've seen articles on Wayland, I have never seen an answer on whether or not network transparency will be enabled ****BY DEFAULT**** in wayland. And no, exporting a full desktop, such as VNC, is *not* a good alternative. After all, if you can't remotely access systems seamlessly, the way X11 can work now, you might as well be running MSWindows, for all the usefulness Wayland will give you.
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by an anonymous user on Apr. 23, 2013@anonymous: Heh... You're a Tool. They ADDED it (like within the last couple of weeks...where have YOU been?) and it will be available by default via RDP (and possibly more since it's simply a plug-in to the arch...)- so it's there. Just not fully the way it works on X11. As for the way X11 works now...you'll find that it doesn't work so hot for a lot of things and you're doing VNC or RDP unless you're using the prior FOSS NX releases to amplify X11's network transparency.
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by Sum Yung Gai on Apr. 23, 2013Since nVidious do not publish their programming specs, but AMD/ATI once again do, I use AMD/ATI. Intel also publish their specs, and they even write a Free Software driver, so I will also gladly use Intel graphics. If I wanted proprietary, closed-up junk, I would've stayed with Microsoft.
The result is that I can use any F/OSS desktop I choose, with full functionality. Vote with your wallet when you buy your hardware!
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by an anonymous user on Apr. 23, 2013@anonymous
"...and it will be available by default via RDP (and possibly more since it's simply a plug-in to the arch...)- so it's there. Just not fully the way it works on X11."
So by RDP you must mean a "full desktop" view. Like I said, completely ***USELESS***. If it doesn't handle seamless windows, it's a WORTHLESS replacement, and should be abandoned like the bad idea taht it is. X11 may not be elegant, but at least there you can get your work done, unlike some RDP-like kludge.
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