Kubuntu Moves Forward: You Can't Please Everyone, All the Time

by Kristin Shoemaker - Nov. 20, 2008Comments (26)

It's nearly a year since KDE released the KDE4 desktop. The initial roll-out was rocky for KDE, and while subsequent releases have brought ever increasing stability and enhancements, some KDE users feel it's not quite ready for daily use.

In the beginning the solution -- for the KDE project, and for distributions that ship with KDE, such as Kubuntu -- was fairly simple. Offer both the 3.5.x and 4.x versions, either as a installation option, or through repositories.

At some point, however, a disconnect has to come. Celeste Lyn Paul, a member of the KDE Human-Computer Interaction group, talks a bit about the decisions Kubuntu had to face as Hardy (and its 3.5 desktop option) gave way to Intrepid's 4.1.x only environment.

It's an unenviable position, both for KDE and the distributions that focus on it as the primary desktop. The differences between earlier KDE releases and the 4.0 release were so significant that the user interface (re-)learning curve understandably required more time. And as Paul states, the 4.0 release was more bleeding edge than usual. This meant that developers also had their own learning curve of sorts, and as each new tweak was applied, end users had at least minor adjustments to absorb.

Paul makes the observation, however, that KDE by nature has always been a bit more focused on "functional design" oriented early adopters -- as she puts it, a release doesn't have to be still "breathing and bleeding" but should be a fresh kill.

A distribution (indeed, any application) has an obligation to its users, especially in the transitional state that KDE was in when Hardy was released last spring. This is why, Paul says, Hardy offered both desktop versions through officially supported packages. When Intrepid was released in October, the Kubuntu team had to make the call -- and decided it was time to move forward. The KDE 3.5 desktop isn't disappearing tomorrow, but it isn't the future of the desktop environment anymore, either.

Unfortunately, according to Paul, Kubuntu decided to disable a few functions of the KDE 4.1.2 desktop in Intrepid because of some worrisome bugs. This aggravated some Kubuntu users.

Other Kubuntu users, though, had to come to terms with the fact that the older desktop release was only available through untrusted, third party sources. They either had to make the transition, or take their chances with packages that potentially could (and in some cases, did) damage their new Intrepid installations.

As someone who was annoyed with the initial KDE 4 rollout (I had been fooling with the 4.0 release since the alpha stages, which weren't as pretty, but seemed more stable than the January release), I've come to make peace with the eccentricities and appreciate the enhancements in the latest releases. However, I empathize with both sides. Change often is good, but changes should help get things done -- and there are a lot of different opinions on what changes help, hurt, or are merely annoying (and how positive or detrimental they are overall) in any desktop setting.

I also feel that the Kubuntu team has done -- and are doing -- what needs to be done to keep the distribution up to date, and to move both Kubuntu and KDE 4 forward. The team's decision won't make every user happy, but packaging both desktop versions (and maintaining every associated package and dependency required for system stability) would be a drain on human resources no project can afford.



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26 Comments
 

indeed but kde4 is still a year or more away from being what i'd call stable... new features are still being added (today even)... cube, sphere, wobbly, present windows, etc... are still being programmed, kubuntu shouldn't have made a release on half-complete code. they should have stayed with 3.5 for production machines... 4.0 and 4.1.x are still too feature-poor, so to speak., 4.5 is going to rock the world more than aero, leopard, or compiz ever did...


0 Votes

Omitting KDE 3.5 was a poor decision by the Kubuntu project. They have maintained a KDE 4 repositories via PPA since it was released. If it is such a drain on resources then why have they chosen to do it up to this point? They seem to have forgotten that KDE users also have a choice of distributions. I use KDE 4 as much as I can until I find something that just doesn't work properly. Kubuntu is not in my future.


0 Votes

No, KDE "4.1" is still beta and should really be called "KDE 4.0 BETA". And the "4.0" release should've been called "4.0 ALPHA".


The Kubuntu team should've stuck with KDE 3.5.x for Intrepid and waited for KDE 4.2 to put into the upcoming "Jaunty Jackalope". We know that *buntu non-LTS releases tend to be leading-edge. That's fine. But they're not supposed to be *bleeding* edge (that's what Fedora's for, the project leaders made that clear from the get-go). That's why so many of us use *buntu over Fedora, we're looking for leading edge, not *bleeding* edge.


The Debian team's example of how to handle this kind of situation is useful here. The upcoming Lenny uses KDE 3.5.10 (the latest 3.5.x at this time). There's a very good reason for that. It's because it simply "Just Works" wonderfully. Right now. Today. If you want KDE 4.x, you *can* get it via Synaptic, but the default KDE is 3.5.10.


KDE 4.x simply is not ready yet. It shows promise and looks good, and I look forward to seeing it in it's fully-baked form, but it's not ready *yet*. The Kubuntu team made a mistake this time by jumping the KDE-readiness gun. Let's hope they learn not to do that kind of thing again.


-SYG


0 Votes

I agree with the previous posters. No matter how much potential the new KDE promises its certainly NOT there yet and as such does not belong in a full fledged "stable" Kubuntu release. It is NOT the job of users to test such obviously unfinished software. Until KDE 4.x is really finished and really stable it does not belong in a "stable" full version distribution like Kubuntu. The developers of Kubuntu may have thought they were nearing a "disconnect" between the new and the old but really the only "disconnect" was between their personal desire to include new unfinished software and their users desire to have a fully functioning stable desktop environment to be productive in.


0 Votes

I've been a Kubuntu User since 5.10 and I have just recently given up on it. I'm now using Xfce after playing around with Gnome a little bit.


My problems started with KDE 4 and the 8.4 release. I just couldn't get it running so I stuck with 3.5. 3.5 wasn't perfect but I was used to it. Moreover, I had been using KDE with my previous Linux distro, Mandriva, since 2003. KDE was always my preferred environment.


When I upgraded to Kubuntu 8.10, KDE 4.1 at least worked. The problem was that it was much slower. I suppose I could've coped with all the widgets had things been running smooth. I was also unable to play Vega Strike (something which I can do with Xfce). Something's also happened to my VLC player in the transfer too.


And as for Adept... I was so used to the previous user interface that when the new one appeared I had no idea how to use it properly. Suddenly it was giving me less information than normal and I found it difficult to work out how to upgrade properly. Now I'm getting used to Synaptic, which isn't as good as Adept in KDE 3.5 but is better than the current Adept in terms of useability.


My PC is a P4 2.66 with 2gb RAM. It's not state of the art but it runs decently.


One of the more interesting additions to the latest Ubuntu release is the presence of benchmark testing. In every single case, my PC runs a lot faster using Xfce than it does running KDE 4.0. I suppose that should be normal for Xfce, since it uses less resources, but in my case the difference is noticeable.


Once 9.4 comes around I suppose I'll check out how KDE is going but until then Xfce and Xubuntu is my preference.


PS I have never really liked Gnome, and probably never will.


0 Votes

Omitting KDE3 in favour of the not yet feature complete nor stable KDE4 basically made it impossible to use Intrepid in any production environment. I would have been fine if KDE4 had been called a beta and was included as an option, but it is not ready yet.


Don't get me wrong, it has potential, as well as some really fresh ideas in GUI design (which is nice in these days of pure eye candy), and I will most likely use it some day, but that day is at least 6-12 months away. Currently, I'm faced with the choice of sticking with Hardy (possibly missing important updates) or using third party repos (possibly unstable). I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.


I need to know that the stuff works, that no important features are missing and that relevant updates are available, I can't afford to take chances with production machines. Intrepid does not deliver that. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the reality of most installs.


I no longer recommend newbies to try the latest Kubuntu, I recommend Hardy. I just don't want them to go back to Windows with a bad impression, believing that Linux is that buggy and that featureless.


I have a lot of respect for the KDE developers, they are doing a great work, but in this case, they were too quick to release it.


0 Votes

Well - I have to say I am using KDE4 at this moment. To be precise KDE 4.1.2. It works really smooth using the Nvidia drivers. There are only a few little glitches here and there but they are only a little bit annoying - nothing serious. I can say confidently that KDE4 is already very useful at this stage. Useful enough to be used on a daily base.


You see - a lot of problems people have here with KDE4 have nothing to do with KDE4 itself. It has everything to do with the lousy implementation Kubuntu has made. If you want a really useful KDE4 implementation then please, please, please do NOT use Kubuntu! The implementation they have made is -friendly said- ehrrmm.. "not up to par".


Please try OpenSUSE or Mandriva (or whatever) if you want to see how KDE4 really could be. On this distro's KDE4 is really useful and usable.


I hate to say it, but if Canonical had put as much effort in Kubuntu as they have did in their Gnome edition, most of the complaints over here would vanish. Unfortunately Kubuntu is the second class citizen of Canonical, and I have the feeling they have no love at all for KDE. And it shows. Even the KDE3.x based Kubuntu versions where very rough around the edges and sometimes instable.


Just my 2 cents...


0 Votes

I've voted with my feet, and gone back to Gnome, which I left because of Mono.


This is only a temporary solution, even though my Ubuntu is Mono-free now, while I investigate other GUIs. I'll probably go for Xfce, which is what I'm using at the moment on my netbook.


It's really sad that Canonical, with all the good work it's doing, can't provide a distro that doesn't either mess its users about or go deeply into code from Novell.


0 Votes

If you want KDE, use Mandriva!


kUbuntu is a toy, Mandriva has better integration and is a lot faster. KDE is _ignored_ by Cannonical but fully supported by Mandriva. After struggling with kubuntu for more than 4 years (coming from Debian and Slackware) I now use Mandriva 2009 with KDE4.1 and apart from "plasma" crashing from time to time when doing unusual things (surely not in day to day usage), I've got no problems and I'm very happy with it. And that includes using kwin's 3D effects on and old intel i855/celeron 1.2Ghz, 5 years old laptop.


No kubuntu version i ever used was as stable and fast (except perhaps 7.04) and so well configured.


0 Votes

LOL @ all of you!!!!


Using Kubuntu 8.10 in work enviroment here, no problems whatsoever. Learn how to use your computer and stop whining.


0 Votes

I applaud Kubuntu's move to KDE 4.x. Yes, it was rocky and I still miss some things from KDE 3.5.x but I am happy with KDE4 and use it on my main desktop and my laptop. I believe KDE4 has the correct approach to the desktop. I'm looking forward to KDE4.2 and beyond, but I find KDE4.1 to be a completely 'usable' desktop.


0 Votes

@ el jacko


Oh - come on. I tested Kubuntu and it is way behind distro's like OpenSUE and Mandriva 2009 etc. You can't deny this if you are earnest.


An me learning how to use a computer?


My friend, I BUILD a central core from TTL components (SN7400 series) years ands years ago, and programmed this thing with simple on-off switches (binairy). I used a 1802 evaluation board (256 bytes of RAM) and learned to program in (hexadecimal) machine code. I learned programming in BASIC and C on the BBC-B computer, and later on C+ on a Acorn Risc-PC. I have installed my first Linux kernel from floppy's and learned how to build a desktop environment from source code.


Please don't tell me what I do and don't know. I know more than enough to see what quality Kubuntu has. And I tell you... they have a lot of work to do!


0 Votes

The statement that Kubuntu "had" to move on is obviously false, because openSUSE 11.0 has both KDE 3.x and 4.x. There was no obvious need to move Kubuntu forward faster than openSUSE - except, of course, for the Canonical desire to be "cutting edge" as well as "for new Linux users" - which by definition is not possible and is the source of most of the (x)buntus problems. They continually produce releases with half-baked software not ready for prime time. For instance, they released a wireless Network Manager a few versions ago that didn't work correctly with WEP, let alone support WPA. It was a nightmare.


Not to mention that Canonical's QA has been poor since day one. A few versions ago, they released an installer that would not let you leave the mount point modification page. There's no way you can make a mistake like that with even halfway decent QA. That means of course that the installer simply wasn't tested at all.


After a failed upgrade on Mandriva 2006 in 2006, I moved to Kubuntu. After various little niggling bugs finally irritated me for the last time, I moved to openSUSE 10.3 in 2007. Not being a puritan hater, I couldn't care less about Novell's deal with Microsoft. OpenSUSE comes with everything but the kitchen sink and doesn't try to "dumb down" Linux like Canonical does. While it has its odd little problems, none of them are irritating on a daily basis like Kubuntu's was and none of them are show stoppers. The only major irritation with 10.3 is the slow refresh of the repository caches every time you want to install a new program - such refreshes should be optional at user command. Beyond that, openSUSE works fine - reliable, stable (except for the odd occasional KWin crash that I think is partly caused by long use Firefox memory leaks - easily recovered with the usual CTRL-Alt-Backspace) and full featured.


So if you want your KDE 3.x back and less bugs to boot, switch to openSUSE.


0 Votes

I use KDE 4 on OpenSUSE at work, and it's mostly a pleasure throughout the whole day. I don't know what the Kubuntu folks did to KDE 4 for Intrepid, but it's an utter failure. (http://lodge.glasgownet.com/2008/11/11/hard-choice/).


So, KDE 4 can, and does, work. It's just broken in Kubuntu. Sadly.


0 Votes

Damn right it's not nearly stable enough, or for that matter functional enough, for daily use. I've told my new Linux users (Mandriva Linux), to stay with Mandriva 2008.1 until I've ascertained if 2009.1 has a stable enough, and functional enough, version of KDE4, because the version of KDE4 on Mandriva 2009.0 is nowhere near good enough.


In fact I had several users complain about KDE4, and one begged me to take her back to "the one that worked" (Mandriva 2008.1 with KDE 3.5.9), where my users have upgraded I've given them KDE3.5.10.


At present all new installs that I do are Mandriva 2008.1 with KDE 3.5.9. I also make sure the upgrade (from 2008.1 to 2009.0) option is disabled.


0 Votes

I am a huge KDE fan, been using it since the version 1. Kubuntu Intrepid is screwed up to the point that it is very slow and unstable on my Penryn 4Gb last generation notebook.


Yesterday I decided to upgrade for (unreleased yet) Jaunty Jackalope with the latest beta of KDE 4.2


Boy what a difference!!


Even at this stage I have not found serios bugs yet, in fact many bugs have already been fixed and not only the alpha Jaunty is more stable it is also more nice and fast.


I am happy with KDE again! The fun is back with 4.2


0 Votes

quote::So, KDE 4 can, and does, work. It's just broken in Kubuntu. Sadly.


No it's broken on all distributions, including OpenSuSE, the missing functionality makes it unusable, for any serious usage.


0 Votes

If Kubuntu team wanted to move to kde4, that is their choice. My gripe is that there is a person who made kde 3.5.10 packages available that work with Intrepid, and the kbuntu folks have put pressure on him to remove the packages. that is flat out wrong and not in the spirit of open source software. If they have made it so we can't use kde 3 and be an intrepid user, then they should allow people to make the alternative available. I for one cannot use kde4 simply because they do not have hiding panels. that issue alone was enough to prevent me from using kde4 (and I tried very hard to do so). bad choice in my mind, but their business, but bad policy on top of that (and unfair policy).


click


http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/


response:


I have been personally contacted by the Kubuntu developers and asked to take the repository offline. At this point, to avoid further problems, that is what I have done.


Don't worry, we will be working on a proper way to get KDE3 onto Intrepid!


0 Votes

Sum Yung Gai@ although it has since evolved into a noticeably independent repository, Ubuntu was originally based on Debian Sid (unstable).


*BTW "sid" is named after the *mentally* unstable character from Toy Story*


Although now sid has a lot more bleeding edge packages than *buntu, it's probably still the most compatible Debian repo (someone tell me if I'm wrong)-- I'd say as far as *freshness*, *buntu* repos are about halfway between Debian sid and Debian stable.


so, assuming that *buntu is still somewhat true to it's roots (as it seems to be) it's only natural that it won't be as stable- that's pretty much peaches versus apricots.


0 Votes

John@ ditto


0 Votes

@freelsjd:

The fact that the packages would break any future upgrade is not a good enough reason to request that they be removed? Also, note that the maintainer is working on packaging kde3 in a safer manner, hopefully using a ppa repo and guidance from kubuntu devs.


Some other factors that seem to be left out here:

Canonical's (not Kubuntu's) decision to NOT have Kubuntu 8.04 an LTS release, a somewhat uncertain future of further 3.5.x updates, as well as the very small size of the Kubuntu dev team (in terms of overall number of packagers and developers both volunteer and paid) were all factors at the time the decision to make 8.10 be KDE4-only was made many months back.


0 Votes

It's clear that a lot of waggonists are here who don't like KDE 4 just because it's new and different from KDE 3. Progress calls for change and old and new can't be teh same. I am not even using a stable version of KDE 4 (4.2 alpha) and it's running well. Of course a few exotic programmes (that I don't use) are still missing but the DE itself and Plasma are stable.

The person who criticizes KDE 4 for not having the glitz and glamour of Compiz-Fusion should remember that these are new features in Kwin 4 and that one can run Compiz on KDE 4 if one needs all the Compiz eye-candies, furthermore these aren't features that Kwin 3 have.


Now to KUbuntu, actually I am an openSuse user and can install KDE 3.5x if I want but I don't see the KUbuntu team as making a mistake. As a matter of fact I personally see the distro moving towards to being a very strong competitor of openSuse, which still delivers the best KDE experience that I have ever had.

I have installed KUbuntu 8.10 and I have to honestly say that it's the first KUbuntu that I really like.

I used to discribe KUbuntu as Ubuntu's bastard daughter but that's a thing of the past with the new release.

The devs are on the right track and should be supported.


0 Votes

My students call Ubuntu 8.10 the "Vista of Linux". I agree.


A side by side comparison shows that the control features, once centralized, have been moved out of the System Settings panel. The new menu takes multiple clicks instead of one to get to a destination. Compiz can be a pain in the butt. Display settings would no longer work with my monitor and it idgnored my xorg.conf. The startup sound cuts off and I still can't find where to turn off the shutdown sound. I could go on...


Oddly enough, I am using KDE4 with a traditional menu, Compiz off, and many issues fixed. Ubuntu 8.10 is a PITA but can be tamed.


0 Votes

Atleast kde moves on, we can´t say that from gnome who is using the same boring interface for years.


0 Votes

I've been with KDE for as long as I've been in Linux starting back around 1999 or 2000 with Mandrake 7.2. Gnome never felt quite intuitive to me and Xfce took too much work just to edit the freakin' menu.


On my main desktop I've reverted to Kubuntu 8.04 w/ KDE 3.5.x and all of my other systems are now running Gnome as will my desktop once I decide to upgrade it. It was way too radical of a change not to mention not quite fully baked to be added to a Kubuntu release w/o having either an ability to install KDE 3.5.x or KDE should have done as *gasp* Microsoft did with Windows and had a "Classic" mode so those of us who don't like being faced or don't have time to relearn a desktop could switch the desktop into at least a look and feel of it's predecessor.


Of all the years I've watched Gnome they haven't done a change so drastic that it pissed off a huge percentage of it's user base to the point they switched to a desktop they've avoided for years. My wife has been a Gnome user for years and never have I heard her gasp in horror that her desktop has changed so dramatically that she didn't know how to use her system.


Linux as a whole is getting me to consider going back to Windows after 10 years of Linux only use. I sell computers retail besides my own business of computer repair and custom building. I can boot Windows Vista, start Control Panel, click "Classic Mode" and guess what? I get the same thing I am familiar with since Windows 95! I see all the icons I am familiar with that when I click on them I have the ability to do just what I assumed I could for the past 13 YEARS. X alone has me fuming because there is no way w/o editing xorg.conf manually to set a video card or monitor driver anymore. Linux newbies are NOT going to care to edit the xorg.conf file and if they opened it understand what the hell to do with it. I have three systems where X improperly mis-identified the monitors capable resolution as well as the video adapter in my system!


They've screwed with things to the point I'm left dissolutioned with an OS I use to love. Their trying to dumb it down for the Windows users..... I imagine the more it will become Windows like the less people will want to switch because, it would be like you didn't change at all...... (note recently Mac is encouraging it's user to install anti-virus software.....they made compromises to appease their former Windows users....)


0 Votes

I switched to intrepid (only) one week ago; so far everything seems to work smoothly; all programs that I routinely use, still do what they're supposed to. What I need from KDE (a program launcher and easy-to-use plug-and-play internet connections) works fine. I don't know what else one wants from a desktop environment, except for some fancy layouts. And I like kde4's fancy layouts.


0 Votes
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