Open, Free, Functional, and Wrapped In a Strong Sense of Self

by Kristin Shoemaker - May. 03, 2009Comments (31)

Over at the Lynx blog, Dougie Richardson cast his vote for the best comment made during the course of Ubuntu's Open Week. While his choice might be completely subjective, there is no denying that Mark Shuttleworth's response when asked whether WINE (in its own right, or as a general synonym for Windows compatibility) or native Linux ports were more important to Ubuntu's success was thought provoking.

The question (and answer) invite all sorts of tangential queries. What should any desktop computer be expected, by default, to deliver? If equivalent applications on different platforms have identical features and functionality, and content produced by one application can be opened and modified on the other, will user interfaces and familiarity matter less -- or more? If Microsoft made every last line of its code available to peruse and modify right now -- how would Windows change? How would Linux change? If you need a Philips head screwdriver, is it possible to squeak by with an approximately sized flat head type?

(12:24:03 PM) jcastro: jcastro: QUESTION: Do you see Wine (and Windows-compatibilty in general) or native Linux ports as the more important ingredient in the success of Ubuntu, or do they each play an important role?
(12:24:18 PM) sabdfl: they both play an important role
(12:24:30 PM) sabdfl: but fundamentally, the free software ecosystem needs to thrive on its own rules
(12:24:41 PM) sabdfl: it is *different* to the proprietary software universe
(12:24:54 PM) sabdfl: we need to make a success of our own platform on our own terms
(12:25:08 PM) sabdfl: if Linux is just another way to run Windows apps, we can't win
(12:25:13 PM) sabdfl: OS/2 tried that

Shuttleworth (sabdfl), I think, is absolutely correct with this answer. Linux simply isn't Windows (nor is Windows Linux) and to expect fundamentally different approaches (and I'm not just thinking closed versus open) to look, feel, and operate the same way is senseless.

That being said, there are certain tasks that people expect from desktop computers. For the most part, Linux handles these tasks (and maybe even more) just as well as (or perhaps, in certain cases, even better than) Windows. Games, most likely, would be the one software category that Windows has the inarguable upper hand -- and for some, that's definitely a deal breaker. It isn't for everybody, though -- and that's the idea.

For many years, I heard Windows described as a one-size-fits-all operating system. I don't think there is an inherent problem with taking some Windows-esque elements and ideas and applying them to an open setting, if they're good, useful adaptations. The idea is that Linux isn't Windows, it's something different, something more, a real, honest to goodness alternative.

Shuttleworth is right. Linux needs to be itself -- and determine what "itself" means. Different distributions (are there too many? Maybe not if everyone has a different favorite) might have -- and should have -- varied determinations of "itself." Interoperability between open and closed platforms (especially when it comes to file formats) is crucial, and another matter entirely. Linux doesn't need to assume the role and identity of its competition for long term success, it can achieve that on its own merits.


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31 Comments
 

No, that's ReactOS!!


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Most people use their computers for office work, to browse the interent, and for various multi-media applications. There is Open Offfice (Sun) for all of the office and business applications and there is Mozilla browser for the internet. I have not checked but I'm sure that there are cross platform versions of the various video and media players as well. Most of the Adobe software is cross-platform (pdf, etc.) as well.


The only issue is with the office applications. You need to share documents or presentations with customers or co-workers, most of whom use Windows environments. This is no problem for Open Office as it allows you to save your documents in the MS formats. I save all of my personal documents in the Open Office formats, but my sales literature in the appropriate MS formats.


Shuttleworth is absolutely correct. The whole purpose of going to Ubuntu or some other Linux is to get away from the whole Microsoft environment. The general crappiness of Vista ought to drive more people into doing this.


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OS/2 did not try that.


OS/2 was never free, beerwise or otherwise. Was never available on a multitude of hardware platforms, including ones the user already owns, but which don't have the specs to run the latest Windows.


Yes, Linux should succeed on its own terms. But there's no reason why one of those terms should not be "...and it'll run most of your old in-house developed Windows code". WINE is not the answer to applications on Linux, but it's an important way to plug the holes where necessary. To deny that is silly.


And that hole-plugging function may be needed for some time to come. But that needn't be such a problem. Ultimately, there's no reason why WINELIB couldn't be enhanced to make it integrate well into GNOME or KDE for apps that are 'ported' to Linux that way. I put 'ported' in quotes, because I know the idea of using WIN32 code to produce a native port is heresy to some. But what would be the difference between a Python app and a WIN32 app if both were able to integrate nicely into the desktop?


I've been using WINE to run some in-house WIN32 code on Linux and MacOS for a long time. It works great. If WINELIB were easier to use, I'd probably have built 'native' versions by now. That's still a whole lot easier than junking the entire code base and starting over (even if my company would pay me to do that).


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>>Shuttleworth is absolutely correct. The whole purpose of going to Ubuntu or some other Linux is to get away from the whole Microsoft environment. The general crappiness of Vista ought to drive more people into doing this.


Kurt. Most of what you say is absolutely true. But the WIN32 API is the least of the 'crappiness of Vista'. It's a programming toolkit. Nothing more, nothing less. Except that there happens to be more code written against that toolkit than any other. WINE is a fully open source implementation of that toolkit. And how is that somehow worse than, say, Mono - or Java for that matter. It's not.


Running a WINE app under Linux doesn't make you succeptable to Windows viruses. Running a WINE app doesn't force you to use MS Office or IE. Running a WINE app doesn't make you have to buy a new computer every 3 years to handle Windows bloat. It just lets you run the app without rewriting it. And that's a majorly good thing.


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But the WIN32 API is the least of the 'crappiness of Vista'. It's a programming toolkit.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of, if you're going to migrate to Linux, why not use all of the open source applications that are available for it (like Open Office, which I use) and save money instead of spending $250 for MS Office and the like.


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On the other hand, most Apple users use the Apple version of MS Office. The same could be the case for Linux.


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The funny thing is Gnu/Linux is here already, but nobody believes it. I'm convinced that for most users a distro like Ubuntu would be a better choice, by far, than Vista, and, yes, better even than XP. However, there are 2 serious problems that have to be solved before Linux takes over the OS world. First of all, Linux distros, including Ubuntu, are too hard to set up. I'm sure that once I install Ubuntu, and related software, on my wife's netbook, she will love it. But right now I don't have the time. The second problem is marketing. The general plublic just doesn't believe that Gnu/Linux offers the best OS. The public has to decide that it wants to use LInux, because the hardware and software vendors are voluntarily hooked into MS. Most businesses prefer the MS model, and not the FOSS model, because there's more easy money to be made that way. MS is the businessmans' dream- a monopoly so intrenched that even a terrible product like Vista can survive, at least in the short run. The only organization that might...just might offer some serious competition to MS is Canonical. But they'll have to make Ubuntu easier to set up, and go heavier on the promotion.


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Hi Kristin,


I wondered why my hits had gone up. I clicked the track back with trepidation as the majority of comments I've had have been quite negative, in fact there are only the polite ones posted.


Linux gamers seem to be a very vocal and unhappy group of people and there has been a lot of hostility to what Mark said (mostly directed at me) but I think his point is valid - Linux needs to stand on its own.


The problem with the phrase "alternative to Windows" is that we in the Linux community take that to mean the OS and all the associated applications that are distributed with it whereas many people coming across from Windows recognize short comings in the Windows OS but don't want to change the applications they are using - which is understandable.


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To succeed, Linux needs to be Windows compatible as much as the Mac is. Yes, you can run Windows program under Mac OS X, but under a virtual machine -- the same way Linux does. However, despite the fact that Apple actually has access to the XP source code, and despite the fact that Apple may have the right to create a true Windows emulating environment, Apple simply sees no reason to. (Remember back in 2001 when Apple and Microsoft signed that cross licensing agreement? Well, that gave Apple a license to Microsoft's current OS -- XP, and Microsoft got a license to Apple's current OS as of 2001 - System 9).


Linux is succeeding where it makes sense. Setup boxes are all Linux. Linux is becoming a big success in the Smartphone market while Windows Mobile is running farther and farther behind. Linux is still way behind Blackberry, Simian, and Mac OS X, but it'll get there -- especially if Palm's WebOS succeeds.


Linux is doing well on the Netbook market because Windows doesn't work too well on smaller screen resolutions and lower powered, smaller systems.


Applications are becoming irrelevant. In the old days, people wanted Microsoft Office, They needed Outlook and Quicken. Now, you can do almost everything on line. Since applications are irrelevant, no one really cares about the OS as long as it is easy to use.


Let Linux improve the desktop experience. Let Linux take advantage of its layered architecture and provide a better interface for different platforms. Windows has failed in the mobile environment because it can't be downsized. People are complaining about Windows dialog boxes not fitting on Netbooks.


Windows will remain the desktop for the desktop PC -- especially in the corporate office. However, that's no longer the end all, be all in the computer world. The various flavors of *nix (including Mac OS X) will dominate the newer platforms simply because they're more adaptable.


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Ubuntu Linux is ready definately. Thousands of great software applications at my finger tips. In my extensive experience Ubuntu Linux is incredibly easy to install and configure. In fact it's boatloads easier than XP since Linux comes with drivers built in to OS (kernel). I had to explain that to my computer dealer the other day that I didn't need his junky Windows drivers. We are running Ubuntu on everything.


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What? no trackback support in here?


My words to a user trying to run ICQ, Winamp and MSN Messenger on WINE:


" .. You may not like the alternatives(The native Linux apps) but when you use Windows programs on Linux you use an alternative windows API to execute them and it's not only buggy and heavy on resources but eventually it will provide a really crappy user experience and you are expected to be "disappointed of Linux" real soon. I think you should consider trying the existing (Native) alternative applications in Linux. IMO you'll find them more usable than using WINE and sometimes even better than the Windows apps you were used to.

"


You can say the same thing about Mono but it might be an exception because currently both MS and Novel are behind it (until some s!@# will hit the fan.. I guess).


Anyway, here are two nice sites to add to your bookmark:

http://www.linuxalt.com/

http://www.osalt.com/


full post:

http://shlomil.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-you-probably-wont-see-me-on-wine...


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@shlomil - we used to have trackbacks in there, but were recently hit by a huge wave of spam trackbacks! The improved spam, as well as trackbacks/pingbacks module should be coming soon...


Thanks for your comment!


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I love Ubuntu, but I think 9.04 was a big disappointment. Linux does not need to be Windows, *but* people do similar things on computers. They need to connect similar hardware. Ubuntu is still suffering on hardware compatibility. Being more specific, USB devices are especially a weak point. Even more specific, logitech webcams, storage devices, etc. are extremely popular. Linux/Ubuntu needs close partnership with prime hardware manufacturers.


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I am a big fan of Ubuntu. I have been using it for about a year now. However, if it wasn't for WINE then I would not use Ubuntu. The reason is not Windows, it is the fact that some of the best multimedia applications (which is the type of application I use at home) are only available in Windows versions. I try to use the equivalent Linux applications, but they tend to work only about 65% of the time; or else they do not have as many features. I am really glad that so WINE is so effective with the Windows applications that I like to use. It would be a real hassle to have to boot back and forth between Linux and Windows - which would probably mean that without WINE then LINUX would not be very practical for the things I like to do. The long term answer is to improve the Linux applications - not a problem that is specific to Ubuntu but something that impacts Ubuntu's usability.


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One thing Linux doesn't do well in is photo-editing/video-editing applications. Gimp is not used by many of the professional photographers in the world. Photoshop is!. And it runs on both MacOSX and Windows "natively". Same can be said for video-editing apps like Adobe Premier or Final Cut Pro. Linux may be good for businesses and Office applications, when compared to Windows or MacOSX. Bust as for good photo-editing/video-editing apps. It just plain sinks!. It's a reality!. Photoshop, Premier, After Effects, even Autocad, for cad users is the standard. And Linux does not run these apps natively. If you get a degree in or go for an interview working as a professional photographer, your are more than likely going to be required to use Photoshop. Knowlege in Gimp is not an option for that job. So when will the Linux world start producing professional software applications for photo-editing/video-editing that will get the attention of photography professionals and schools.


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The question was "whether WINE (in its own right, or as a general synonym for Windows compatibility) or native Linux ports were more important to Ubuntu's success"


True that WINE is a very important piece of software, but I agree with Shuttleworth that if one of them is to be chosen as the competitive strategy for Linux, then it should be through its own identity. By providing a differentiated product that has better business value than Windows. Not by providing a cheaper alternative to running windows applications.


Most normal consumers like me, we don't hate Microsoft, and we don't have a reason to "get away from the whole Microsoft environment" as such. We want computers and environments that lets us work on our business problems rather than PC problems. Similarly most businesses just don't buy a products just coz its from Microsoft, this can be seen in the case of Vista, where most of the businesses refused to upgrade to Vista. Why? because a fancy looking desktop with a lot of new technologies was not what businesses wanted. XP ran all their business applications well and that's what they wanted.


Usability of desktop linux has been improving at a tremendous rate, and when more and more native ports of key business applications, Linux should prove to be as competitive product as Windows or Mac.


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Wine devs should focus entirely on games.

It is a bigger factor than anyone wants to admit.

Wine should be as basic, as integral, and as cross-platform capable as Openoffice has become.


Price and lack of virii/trojans are obviously not enough to motivate the mentally sedentary majority.

Most users are practically computer illiterate due to simple lack of interest and MANY MANY users only use a computer for games and surfing.

I don't see this changing, so things need to be as idiot-friendly as possible.


It is the only way to increase market share.

Cross platform compatibility is already covered for virtually everything else (that matters marketwise anyway) without needing an emulator.


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"So when will the Linux world start producing professional software applications for photo-editing/video-editing that will get the attention of photography professionals and schools."


I think you didnt get yet what open source world is about. The open source developers (the real ones) are not working FOR YOU. They are working FOR THEMSELVES. Apache exists because somebody needed a http server and this person did not waited for the solution, he created it himself. Same applies to almost any open source software. The author creates the software because he needed it! So the anwser to your question is quite simple: they will have it the day they create it. Dont expect me to create it for you... photoshop is useless or me.


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"Wine should be as basic, as integral, and as cross-platform capable as Openoffice has become."


Um, no thanks! I don't want WINE crap installed on my Ubuntu machine. There are some of us that use Ubuntu because we have the balls to switch as opposed to dipping toes in the water and running back to Windows software when we're in too deep.


Also, I'd rather Ubuntu be what us actual users want, not what some potential Windows converts want. Who gives a darn about market share really? I don't!


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In 30 years we will still be discussing about what Linux needs to succeed. It's clear enough to me: it won't.


There is splendid open source software out there, but desktop Linux is dead, only it still doesn't know it yet. It had its chance, but blew it, due to extreme fragmentation and lack of focus. SImply put, no one cared enough, and Mr. Shuttleworth's pockets are not deep enough to fix the mess.


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Without Wine Linux will remain on servers only indefinitely. I hope no one wants that.


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"Wine should be as basic, as integral, and as cross-platform capable as Openoffice has become."


Um, no thanks! I don't want WINE crap installed on my Ubuntu machine. There are some of us that use Ubuntu because we have the balls to switch as opposed to dipping toes in the water and running back to Windows software when we're in too deep.


Also, I'd rather Ubuntu be what us actual users want, not what some potential Windows converts want. Who gives a darn about market share really? I don't!


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I don't really understand the reason why people are arguing at all. Ubuntu is a great linux distribution and it works perfectly out of the box. There are some driver issues, but 99% of commonly used hardware works perfectly out of the box.

I keep 3 Ubuntu computers at home (desktop, laptop and netbook). None of them is really new hardware, because the OS itself keeps on actually getting /faster/ at every release!

If I really need some windows app, i can dual boot. But this is mainly for gaming, which nowadays I do on a console (it's way cheaper to have a first class console than a first class computer...)

For ordinary tasks (browsing, office, programming), Ubuntu is a very good replacement for Windows, with its own identity -- it works just as well or better than Windows, for example Pidgin is better than Live Messenger...

The really good bit, though it's the huge variety of quality software available literally at-a-click and for free. The OS is also very remarkably stable, I've had no reinstalls and no bit rot in more than 2 years of continuous usage. Only some minor driver problem with proprietary drivers on one out of three computers. Now that I think of it, I haven't had any OS crashes either.

After some time, and after really giving Ubuntu a try, every time I go back to Windows is a pain. Booting takes so long (I have a booted up system in less than 60 seconds with Ubuntu, it takes minutes with Windows), the updates are a pain (patch the OS, patch every... single... software), in ubuntu it's just one click away.

Of course, people might still prefer Windows. That's perfectly fine with me, I like windows too, it has its merits. But I agree with Mark, Ubuntu can stand on its own legs, and choosing Ubuntu Linux does not make you a pariah anymore, You can do whatever everybody else is doing.

Regarding installation, it's arguably the best install system available today. You burn a CD (or get it mailed to you for free), pop it in and boot. You get a working desktop with no install. If you like it, click on an icon and the install starts, 5 steps and it starts copying stufff. In the meanwhile you can fire up Firefox and check your email or play a game of solitaire. 20 minutes later it's done, you reboot and you have Ubuntu installed. Same goes for upgrades: a new version of Ubuntu comes out? One click and the system upgrades while you work. Reboot (you need to reload the kernel) and you are done.


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Wine looks good to me !


http://meview.metro.co.uk/Video.aspx?id=42181


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Wine is about time. When can we expect a functional Wine? It may take some time.


I still don't get why Ubuntu does not support the biweekly release out of the box. The first you do is add the sources.


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So are we talking about vista vs xp or are we talking about how Linux as competition to microsoft? I'm confused, I am also sure someone is going to open their mouth about how MS is sooo much better than linux etc etc. Let us look at a few items, *the best things in life are free....funny you don't have to pay for linux *"embrace, extend and extinguish" when you are the soccerfield, then i guess it is easy to kill off the players. The fact that microsoft is constantly under fire because they move into a market and spend all the money to embrace technology that they did not develop, then extend it through its OS as trial or as THE only option without those who really knew that options exist beyond them thus extinguish all competition. Think about internet explorer and netscape, or microsoft office, lets also add into the mix that microsoft doesn't care about adding and improving features or software unless they are forced by someone who comes up with software better than what they gave. hence the browser wars etc etc. there is also vendor lock in, the fact that they don't fix security leak and all these issues but you are still paying top dollar. What I will say however is that they are not exactly wrong for this process, I think the problem is in the hands now that people are clueless to open their eyes to other options that are out there. Back in the early years of O/S for the home PC it was pretty much all fair. no one really had the big kinks worked out to make things work semi out of the box. Microsoft made that step. yet now linux finally has distro that is ready for the basic user but people down it simply because the distro is young. lets look at the idea that it is FREE, it has basic get you by software that can do many things you want right out of the box. when it comes down to the software options there are not as many as windows but then again compare ubuntu to early ms windows OS. i think the point is ubuntu has to get to the point where you can do the basics right out of the box without a lot of work. The second fact is that it is an all uphill battle, not many people in the world really know about linux, secondly if not many people use the OS then obviously a lot of the software the general home user would use IS NOT GOING TO BE THERE. Someone is always going to want to down something when they are a hardcore fan of the competition. Thats not wrong or right. I see ubuntu as a great opportunity, not only that you can reuse old computers, but that you are putting money out of your pocket. Lets think about those that don't have money to plop out on a new pc or os. The idea behind linux is great. It may not be Microsoft Windows, but it has noble idea. I think givin time the OS will continue to become a viable alternative for those who are willing to make it through the growing pains. If you think the idea of linux is going to be stomped out by a new release of any other OS then you are probably living in another world. There will always be someone out there working on linux distros and software for be it a hobby or necessity. puff im out of breath. p.s. if you are offended it wasn't my point and you obviously didn't get my point so eithe reread or build a bridge and get over it.


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"There is splendid open source software out there, but desktop Linux is dead, only it still doesn't know it yet. It had its chance, but blew it, due to extreme fragmentation and lack of focus. SImply put, no one cared enough, and Mr. Shuttleworth's pockets are not deep enough to fix the mess."


Nonsense. There are more people using a Linux distro now then ever before. This post can only be attributed to a troll. I say that because the person presents opinions that are not logical and cannot be backup by facts. Enough said on that silly statement.


I do believe that the main reason most people that use Linux and WINE and are using the lame excuse of Windows apps are better are really just maybe a little lazy. They don't want to learn anything new. Take Photoshop for an example. I own both and there is not a lot of difference for someone who knows what they are doing and will take a little time in learning something new. You do have Gimpshop to use to make things a little easier for a Photoshop user to learn. If a person cannot do without MS Windows programs and have built their life around them then they should stick with MS Windows. (I don't include games in this because they are for recreation purposes.)


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I am for Linux standing on its own. However, many in the Linux camp seem to not realize that the state of Linux applications does not necessarily hold parity with the Windows world at the moment.


In order to facilitate an easy migration to Linux it is a must to have a way to run applications which either have no Linux analog or has one that is so low in quality so as to be unusable for the majority of those switching.


It has nothing to do with Linux standing on its own; it has everything to do with making the switch to Linux painless with as little barrier to entry as possible.


The issue really isn't about running Windows apps on Linux. The real issue is to get the software developers who crafted Microsoft code to begin porting their products to Linux. Until they do, Wine/Crossover Linux is a fine "middleman" approach while Linux continues its march forward.


As Linux takes hold the fewer Windows apps will need to be run under Linux as there will be Linux versions of the applications.


Until then Wine/Crossover Linux is a fine solution.


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Bullshits. If Wine is useless give me a clone of VisualSourceSafe or pay coders to improve OpenOffice...
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I am a near computer illiterate computer user. To me the computer is only tool that I use to get things done. The hard core Linux camp consists of arrogant techno geeks who do not do anything except endlessly debate. Reminds me of distant relatives in the old country, the ones who endlessly debated and insisted on maintaining their purity got slaughtered by the Cossacks and then the Nazis, the ones who got up and acted and did not care about obscure principles either took a few with them or jumped on boat to somewhere where people did not waste time on debating non realities and lived.

If you want to take market share from Windows, you need an easy install, you need to be able easily install drivers and even use win or mac drivers, the liux driver supply is impoverished, and they are hard to install. Ditto for program installation. There are a lot of programs written for Win which have no Linux equivalent, and never will. There are a lot of legacy programs that are still in use. Quit arguing purity and write an emulator or api or whatever the hell you want to call it that will make it easy to install and run these programs. I don't give a crap about OS purity or the philosophy of open source, I want something easy to use that will help me get my real work done with a miimum of hassle, and that includes not having to learn another obscure command set. Diddling computers is not my primary job, they are a tool Ihave to use to get my job done, and that toolhas to be easy and transparent to use.

If linux is to become usable, make it easy to install, make program and driver install easy: download a package, click on and it is installed and ready to run, make uninstallation just as easy. Give me a menu for the program that says Install or create installpackage for transfer to another computer, Run, and uninstall.

If I plug in a new piece ofhardware, I want a box that says" install driver?", where is driver program, then a simple click and it is installed. It is arrogance on the part of the Linux community mucka mucks that they have not adapted to the real world and written linux so it can use windows drivers and instead expect the manufacturers to write drivers for linux. It is not going to happen,and the linux distros are so incompatible, that no one can write a linux driver that is universal.

Get real, quite being ivory tower masterbators and start thinking like real world entrepeneurs and how you are going to make your product salable. You are not selling out by making it easy to use, you are making it usable by people with real work to do, or who want to have fun with their computer and do not want towaste their time learning a vast set of command liones.

If you want to suplant windos make the product easier to use, make the product capable of using legacy drivers and programs forwindows as well as new programs. For example I use both MS office and Open Office on the same document. There are features one programhas that the other does not do as well. I am glad I am not stuck with either one or the other. Get over your ridiculous ideas of purity and give me lots and lots of choises, let me run dos or Win programs or Mac programs or programs for Linux all at the same time. Let me run any hardware I can plug in, and forget purioty and write an emulator or whatever the hell you want to call it that will use a win driver it no linux driver is available. Make it easy to connect to the Internet, or other network. It is easier todo this with windows that most versions oflinux. I am not going to waste my time trying to install and connect with Linux. If I cannot do it with minimum hassel, I will go back to Winodows.


The reason Liux has not caught on is that it is controlled by arrogant ivory tower techno weenies who want to keep it as arcane and obscure as possible, rather than buckle down and do the hard grunt work of writting code that will result in an easy to use OS. If it is more stable and more secure than windows , great, but ntil it is easy to use no one in the real world is going to take it up.


quit debating and start developing something I will want to use.


PS

Puppy Linux and some of the puplets are just about the only Linux a non geek can easily use. The Puppy developers are not wasting time debating the philisophy or purity of their product, they are just creating something fun and easy to use.


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thwe reason more people run windows is because it actually runs apps that people want. !!!!!!!


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